Death to Vanilla | Dennis Gable - Brnd Prdcr | Episode 03

Steven Burkhart: Hey everybody, welcome to the Death to vanilla podcast where we talk about courageously creating, boldly innovating and experimenting. And so I am on the call here with Dennis. He is most well known for being a brand producer, but definitely has a lot of other things going on with his own podcasts and different business ventures that he's up to. And he's someone that has always caught my eye of doing things boldly differently, being authentic and vulnerable and honest about who he is. And you know, we we kind of look at someone like a Gary Vee is kind of being like the most public pioneer of that, like, where he's wearing hoodies to professional meetings, and everyone's like, What the heck is going on? 

Steven: And so I think it's, it's funny how that we're kind of trending just even culturally to that. And I think that's really exciting, because that is part of what makes hiring someone like you or me or the guy down the street, so much more different, that they're actually embracing who they are. And that's part of the business experience. And it always has been, it's just never been public. Right? So yeah, so if you could just, if you could just do a little introduction about yourself and what you do with Brian, producer, I think that'd be a great place to kick off.

Dennis Gable: You're, my name is Dennis Gable, like you mentioned, and brand producer came out of a really low point in life. I was essentially failing as a freelance designer, and knew that my what I actually the gift I actually gave to clients was never the design. I'm about as mediocre of the designers you can find. And so what what I, what I started to notice that clients really cared about was the way in which I could strategically look at their problem and offer a solution. And then, in a lot of cases, I was providing that solution and still do in some way. But Rand producer was built because I was watching a documentary. 

Dennis: And I watched an interaction between Rick Rubin and Jay Z. And the way that Rick Rubin came in and just offered what he wanted Jay Z to do. Jay Z was in on it. Rick Rubin walked away, and I literally was sitting on my couch. And that's what I do. I'm the producer. And the next day, I created all the assets for it. And so it was this like shotgun, Hail Mary sort of business play. And I'm very grateful and fortunate that it It worked in is working.

Steven: It's funny how easy something is when it just clicks when it finally hits that spot. And it's like, oh, yeah, that's me like, and it's so funny, because it's one of those things where sometimes you have to have that like outside validation to realize that, like, you're not crazy, that like it finally exposes what's really going on. And that's always super exciting. But if you struggle for years and years, and all of a sudden something clicks, and it's like, and then everything changes. And that kind of sounds like that's what happened with you.

Dennis: 100% set me on fire man, it was it, you know, really, to step into something like brand producer, where initially I didn't start quite as bold as I am. Now initially, I was like, oh man, and your social, and I'll design your things. And I'll kind of be everything to everyone. But it was the narrative around being the producer that I think people really enjoyed and cut on to and I've learned so far into that. Like, if you go to my site, my three services are identified by album single and a mixtape.

Steven: I saw that. Yes. So, you know, I've

Dennis: Learned so heavy into that. I have actually, I've made a an album cover that has me on the front, and then my services on the back of album cover. So I've been I've been super heavy into that. And in the you know, it lends itself to my general philosophy, philosophy about marketing and why it matters in the first place.

Steven: Right, which if you want to unpack that a little bit?

Dennis: Sure. I think there are enough people in the world who are willing to follow the status quo. in general. Yeah, like, whether it be fashion or whether it be politics, or whether it be religion, or whether it be how we choose to live our lives, but certainly in marketing, and you see it as you look at the trends of industries. The real estate industry markets itself, sort of in one direction. The restaurant industry typically markets itself in one direction, and we see these these lanes of marketing. And I like to just wipe that shit all the way and say, Who are we trying to get to? And what is the individual authentic piece of your your story or your offering? And how do we get that to them in a variety of ways. You had mentioned before we started talking, the bus stop that I just created for clients. 

Dennis: And I'm not afraid of traditional media, if it makes sense. If traditional media in your key demographic is somebody who's going to drive by this particular bus, stop that has one of the panels is hot pink. So it's it. It's different for me, you know, my client actually for that piece was like, I'm not comfortable with this. And I was like, What do you mean, you're not comfortable with this? He's like, it's too bright and it doesn't feel professional enough. Do you want to be professional? Or do you want somebody to call you?

Steven: Yeah.

Dennis: And he said, I want somebody to call me. And so really, it's, it's always a little bit of psychology when I push the limits so far. But I'm, the type of media is irrelevant to me. Honestly, if we know that there, there are numbers that support your target demographic seeing it. Let's do digital, and let's do social. And let's do a mailer. And let's do a bus stop. And let's do a magazine. And let's do a newspaper. And let's get you on the television. Because that funnel, sort of idea is, think of it like a sifter, right? You throw it all in, and what comes out is what's left? Right. So that's really the the kind of theory that I have is, let's be bold in all of the places. My, we ain't got nothing to lose.

Steven: Right? Well, and there's so many wonderful places, we can take this because you've hit on so many different things I love one is that just to revisit the one part, you're so right, like, the right medium for the right person is the right choice, right. And there's a difference between being stuck in a way of doing things. And viewing all of the options is equally viable, right. And so it's not that billboards are the worst. It's just some people are stuck in the sense that they're that that's the only thing they know to do. And so that's what they ring the bell for. But obviously, that doesn't work best for everybody. And so at the same time, it's like some people, you know, I remember when I first started getting into social media, it's like Facebook is the thing, man, like fake Facebook is gonna change the world and change my business.

Steven: And it's like, it's just one of many, many channels, many opportunities, many places in which to communicate. Yeah, and it's not going to be the game changer that you probably think it's going to be, it's going to be a combination of a lot of things. And I think that I love your approach. For me, marketing is holistic, it like it has to fit into everything. And then, then that's how you get the strategy out of it. It's not just one thing, right?

Dennis: I mean, we both live in Phoenix. So think about Brandon Rafi.

Steven: Oh, yeah, total rest literally pops in my brain is everywhere.

Dennis: Dude, He's everywhere. But I've literally never seen a digital ad for him. And I've talked to him and used his name in many meetings, right? So if the Google machine is true, that it follows us, at whatever rate, I would see digital media, and I don't write he's on a side of the light rail, or a bus and he's on dozens of bus stops and billboards. And, you know, if I were to consult for somebody like him, the amount of money that he's spending is not even the question. But it's looking at the different silos and saying, Where could we meet other people that need your services that aren't driving? Right. And and that's really, you know, I would take half to a third of their spend on billboards, and, and bus stops, and I would diversify across every digital media that we could. Just because it doesn't make sense not to, in my opinion, what why, you know, why limit yourself to people who are driving or walking?

Steven: Well, it's kind of always like, what's the next step? So it's like, okay, now everyone's talking about him. But what was their plan now, like, now that I was talking about him? Is there going to be any sort of funnel? Are there going to be ad spend? Is there going to be a mailer? That goes to my house, you know, I mean, like, what's next? Now that, like, everybody knows you, that's awesome. That doesn't necessarily mean you're going to make money now. Unless people have like something somewhere to go with it.

Dennis: Yeah, I mean, he finally got new pictures, which is good.

Steven: I know. I saw that I was very excited. But it was it was kind of funny, because, you know, he's, he's, he's spent like, I mean, I would guess, it's like, what do you think? Maybe like half a mil? Oh, way more, more than that. Okay.

Dennis: I bet he spends. I bet he spends over a million dollars a year on on that marketing.

Steven: Yeah. And so it's like, and then he's gone all that trouble. Now, here's a different picture. That's kind of funny. But hey, whatever. It's okay. So then. So talk to me a little bit about your journey from being what you not, you know, not vanilla, but certainly not as bold as you are. Now, when you first started brand producers. So like, was there like moments? Like, I guess, I guess I'm asking, was there any definitive moments where you're like, Okay, like, I actually have to be more different than I am now. Or was it just more like gradually accepting yourself for being different Like, how did that happen?

Dennis: Yeah, that's a great question. Actually. My four pillars are authenticity, consistency, humanization and intentionality. Those are the four pillars that I run every client through, doesn't matter if it's a one off consulting client, if I'm teaching a class or if this is a an ongoing, you know, I'm there, I'm there to strategist, everything runs through those pillars. When I first started, I didn't have those pillars, I created a logo and a list of services, and I text message 400 people, right? And I was like, hey, this what I'm doing if you know somebody. And then as I had to develop, what my cert what my process and what my offering really was, I developed these pillars, and then I developed what what lives with inside them and what actually gives them their strength and foundation because just those words alone doesn't mean shit, it, it's what, it's the cement, and how deep. 

Dennis: Each of those pillars really are buried into the ground for me that give them their weight. Right? It was as I was developing those that I looked at myself in the mirror, and I was like clipping pussy, like, you're being such a bitch about this, you are trying to play safe to find clients that you're not going to want to work with anyway. And that was the game changer. For me. I had a client early into brand producer that I absolutely hated working with. hated it. But I was like, money and money has to, you know, Feed my kids and pay my bills. And that was a really pivotable pivotal moment for me when I when I looked at my interactions with her and decided that this was not going to work. I promised myself that day that I would never wear like when I met with her I wore a suit coat. 

Steven: That's hard to for me imagine, right now.

Dennis: I own them, I just don't wear them, you know. But when I met with her, I wore a suit coat. And I was like, I'm not doing this again, I just categorically am not doing it again, right? You know, I pitched I pitched a client wearing a basketball jersey and got them as a client that I still have, like, the difference between when I started and where I am now is like, if I'm gonna preach authenticity than just showing up. Yeah, and if, in my my general theory, because I don't, I don't like being an asshole, I don't like being off putting. But my general theory is if how I look is offensive to you or off putting you are not gonna like the way that I work. So it's almost a little litmus test for me. Right? That if somebody accepts me visually, because, you know, obviously, I'm a coloring book as well. And so having that is one more barrier, and then I go up in jeans and or, you know, a T shirt and cutoff jean shorts. And that's another barrier. And it's like, if people can embrace who I am visually, and they know that my value is here up in my brain, then we're gonna get along really well. So do you feel like that is?

Steven: Because that barrier of entry are so high? Or do you feel like you've done just a better than average job? educating the client? You know what I mean? Because like, I mean, because let's be honest, you know, people who dress like that showing up to something is probably going to be difficult for most people to take someone like that seriously. So they've got to walk into it, knowing something about you ahead of time, I would imagine. Is that true?

Dennis: Yeah. I mean, I'm pretty fortunate that people like to talk about me. And I don't say that in an arrogant way. But it's like, when, when I get referrals, it's because somebody has talked about the level of service that I provide, or their quality strategy or my willingness to really, like, break the box open and take the restrictions away. But even yesterday, you had invited me to alignable. And I was filling out the right, I was filling out the you know that page, and it said, if you could what thing do you do better for your clients than your competitors? And my answer was, listen, I actually hear the questions that they're asking, and I'm able to speak directly to the question. 

Dennis: So if you were to sit in a pitch with me, I don't come prepared, necessarily. I come ready to listen and let my intuition and my heart be a part of that process. So that when I'm asked a question, or when I'm given what they feel like their problem is, I don't have some bullshit canned response that comes from my pitch deck. Right? Like, I'm, I'm not a fan of pitch decks. I think it's a it's like wearing a suit. It's like being an asshole and wearing a suit. Like, if if you you look nice, but you suck as a human you looking nice is irrelevant. In pitch deck sort of feel the same way to me and there's nothing wrong with dressing nice, right? And there's nothing wrong with pitch decks, right. But if you're pitching Stack is intentional and intuitive and thoughtfully constructed, then it's a beautiful tool. 

Dennis: If it's a way to to oversell your shitty service, that sucks. So the way that I choose to do it is I come in seeming sort of unprepared, and I've been called out on it like, have you looked at our website? Nope. Have you looked at our social? Nope. Have you looked at? Nope. Why not? Because my intention is to hear what you think your problem is. And then I'll provide a solution to what you think your problem is. And then I can discover what other problems are, as opposed to me doing, you know, wasting five or six hours on research, just to make you think like, I don't know, I don't know. overselling is not a part of my gig.

Steven: Well, and realistically, when it comes down to it, like, what they think the problem is, is the only thing they're willing to spend money on.

Dennis: 100% and I, early in early in brain producer, I was like, Well, I'm looking at your website, and it seems that your call to action is a little weak, and it's not quite speaking to who I think your demographic could be. And that was not at all what they cared about. Right. Like, you know, I've learned a lot of lessons that have led me to be where I am, both in life and in business. And in it, it has led me to understand that my truest value is to give my whole heart to something. And to do that, in a way that is as as authentically me as I can be without being off putting, you know, as off putting as possible.

Steven: To the person is, right, like, Oh, no, I definitely don't want this to work out. So when you are sitting down to someone, and you just have a really strong feeling about this is where they need to go. How do you deal with like, like, for example, when you're when you're bringing up the issue about the the pink sign, right? And that would just be in not professional or whatever else? How do you work with people on kind of finding where that line is? where like, Where's too far, and where it's not far enough? You don't I mean, because if it's if it's not far enough, it's it's vanilla, it's not going to get noticed, this is going to be passed, just like any other, you know, bus stop sign if it's too far, you know, we have examples of that throughout history of like people who took marketing too far. And it was like offensive made people mad and tanked businesses. So like, how do you find that line? And then how do you walk someone through that because obviously, they've got fears, walking into it, because you're you're affecting their business

Dennis: Represent, I hold it open handed. All of my clients have heard me say, at the end of the day, you're the boss, and you can veto anything that I suggest. That's where I start is, while they, they trust me, and they pay me and they've given me some sense of authority over their business and the messaging, I always give it back to them and say, at the end of the day, this is your business, it feeds your family. And you can make the decision to veto My suggestion if you'd like. Alright, and that paid dividends for me. Because what it allows my clients to know is that I really am just a human with them. I'm with them in this process. I'm not, I'm not over them in the process. I'm not trying to, you know, flex on them, like I really understand the weight of what we're doing. But additionally, I am willing to say, look, if this is our if this is our end goal, to get a call as an example. What can we do to draw somebody's attention? Give us a call. And how far can we go? 

Dennis: I mean, there are people who are marketing in Arizona in specific industries, that I'm like, man, y'all are ballsy. And I think it's ballsy in a bad way. Because it it is potentially offensive. Right? It does. I've seen some ad recently that was like, what is actually happening? Like, who told you this was a good idea? And which one of your friends should you slap in the face for not telling you don't do this, right. And you know, it. At the end of the day, it's all perception. Sure. And I think I've done enough work. In the idea of it being perception, I think I've done enough work and observing the world, both personally and externally, to have a decent idea of where the line is for people. And some of that is just simply in how aggressive I am as a person. I'm vulgar and I look like I look and I come across is to a lot of people I come across as I don't get what you think and that's not really true. I do deeply care what people think. To the point that it gives me imposter syndrome and paralyzes the shit out of me, you know, right. Um, but the way that I appear to people, I've had to learn how to understand and so I hope I have a personal first hand view of how to know when I've pushed somebody too far.

Steven: Yeah, no, that that's so true. I'm like, back, I worked at sprouts for a number of years, interacting with clients, like, you know, customers. And it's funny that like kind of intuition you end up getting after a while where you're like, you can kind of just tell by the way someone responds to you how many words they use, if they look at you, like all of those things, you can kind of take up all those cues and be like, oh, like, this person doesn't want to talk to me, or, hey, this person just needs to, like, get warmed up a little bit, and they'll be fine. And it seems that way with clients too, is, like you said, you know, you can kind of tell when you push them too far. We're like, okay, like, this is more than just like pushing them to be more adventurous, they're uncomfortable. But yeah, I mean, it's so hard to find that line. Because what what mean, like, I think it sounds it may seem obvious to you and I, but for a second, you know, talk to a talk to a marketing director, who has traditionally done traditional media, and they're scared about doing new stuff, what are they giving up? by not being adventurous and bold?

Dennis: Time and money? You know, like, I think, I think that it's really simple in that way. And, and we can look at this in any regard, right? I spent a number of years in the Christian church. I'm no longer a part of that same thing, in the way that I was. So what what thinking about that, like I was in a lane, I chose a lane and I lived in that lane. And what I missed are so many other beautiful, valuable relationships and worldviews and opinions and time spent with really great people that I wouldn't at the time have agreed with.

Steven: Mm hmm.

Dennis: But that takes nothing away from their humanity or their humaneness, or our ability to connect. And so I think anything in that, in that it's true when you pick a lane and you just stick to that lane because it feels safer, because somebody told you that it's the only way that you can go, what you miss are really beautiful, organic opportunities to experience different worldviews and different wins and different successes and different people and, and the things that really make what being a human is to me so valuable. Like, one of my kids will can only eat chicken tenders and tater tots and shit. And I'm like, and, and I'm like, dude, will you please be adventurous with food because it will make your life so much better? Right? experience of getting out of your own way will make life so much better. And I think that that's true for life. That's sort of a philosophy of mine. 

Dennis: But in in terms of the question, you're asking the marketing director who sticks to traditional media, because they're afraid of what's on the other side that fear is, is fake, that fears bullshit. There's, I believe this deeply with my whole heart and soul, there's fear, and then there's being scared. being scared is standing on a 40 foot cliff, over some water, being scared that you may not land on your feet. If you were to jump, being afraid, while you're sitting at home. Thinking about being on that ledge, is bullshit. It's not real. And so their fear is a totally fake ass construct that I am trying to mentally everyday remove. I'm trying to remove the idea that fear is real and exists. Because it it it has paralyzed me at different times in my life. The fear of approval, the fear of failure, the fear of success, the fear of all of those things are so fake. But what what we what we should do is step to the ledge and then determine even if we're scared, are we still willing to jump? right and that's that's the advice I would give to that creative director that you know, managers to say are you willing to stand at the edge in jump because the chances of you landing on your feet and this going really well are way higher than you think it up somehow.

Steven: One I think the other big thing unless you're like spending money on a billboard and I guess where my head goes is doing like paid ads on like some of like the emerging platforms and stuff like that that are out there. Like the dollar amount to start experimenting in those spaces just isn't that high. I mean, for some of them when they are I mean like the one space that I've been looking at more recently is like the Ott ads the over the top for like some of the streaming services that you watch on your TV. Those have a pretty high financial barrier to entry but for a lot of them like buy an ads on Sunday. chat or tic toc, or any of those, like, you know, no one's gonna lose their job because they spent like $1,000 over the course of a year on Tick Tock ads, you know, they're just not.

Steven:  And I, you know, having having some sort of boundaries and framework that you do, you're experimenting and I think is key to you know what I mean, and being able to have some sort of way of judging like, Is this good? Is this bad? did how did it work out? Because at the end of the day, it's like you said, you gotta, you gotta at least get your feet wet to make a real judgement. Otherwise, you're just it's like, what do they say? like anxiety is like the fear of what if, like, situations that never haven't even happened yet, just something you've made up. And, and those do drive decisions, though. But as people like us that have to be able to help people walk through them, and understand what they're missing by not jumping, getting to the ledge. 

Dennis: So that's what I mean, you're absolutely right, anxiety is the product of the unknown. And in your, in your job, and in my job. The reason that I don't push people from the back to the edge of the cliff, is because that doesn't go well. Yeah, the what I do is I grabbed their hand, and I say, I'm gonna lean a little further than you, right, I'll take the risk. First, I'll look over the edge. And then I'll let you know that it's okay. And then I'm going to ask you to join me. I'd like, but I that's the exact reason that I don't push from the back is because it makes people tense up. And that anxiety that's not the anxiety is real, but the fears made up. It's the culmination of things that we've thought and heard or, or heard other people's stories or, you know, just dreamed up in our imaginations. 

Dennis: And it, then we're faced trying to talk somebody out of something that's not real, as opposed to just letting them know gradually see for themselves. And to your point, the low barrier of entry on some of this stuff is it's kind of ridiculous. Like, if somebody has a product, and they're a seller on Amazon, dude, Amazon ads are cheapest shit. Because it's an underutilized ad platform. Everybody's trying to grab the Google search, right, and push them to Amazon, as opposed to advertising in the platform itself like that. Those sort of little nuances. If somebody's willing to trust you and take your hand and be led to the, you know, lead to the cliff. I think it builds trust. I think it builds rapport. It builds on it. It builds all of the things that we want, as business owners and as marketers is, we want people to trust us. I would much rather have five clients for five years than 50 clients for six months at a time.

Steven: Yeah, just for the sheer onboarding would just be horrifyingly painful. It's like, I don't want to get to 50 people, I want to get to know that many people a month. Yeah, it is. Yeah, so yeah, I just love that I just, I just love that idea of taking people along for the ride, I guess the thing that I keep coming back to over and over again, is is kind of that idea of being a guide for them. You know what I mean? Like a god, you know, if you go to like a forest in Africa, like, the first thing you do is find a guide. 

Steven: Because he's already he's already been the one like whack and Bush's like finding out where the lions are, and like, finding out what the quicksand is, and like helping people get around it, you know, what I mean? And, and that's really why people are here are hiring people like us, not only for a creative acumen, but just for the sake of like, hey, like, we've kind of been over here, like, we know what's happening over here. And we're gonna help you get around that at rather than, like you said, pushing them, because at that point, you just don't have that buy in. Right. And if people don't have buy in, just gonna be looking for an excuse of why it's gonna fail. Because ultimately, it wasn't their idea. They don't believe in it. And they're gonna be looking for any reason why it's not their fault, and why it was your fault and why it's not going to work. And unfortunately, that can totally kill, and a beautiful opportunity,

Dennis: For sure. And then think about the times that you've had to do this, too, is instead of just guiding somebody to the cliff and getting them to trust you that it's going to be okay, you've had to build a slide from the top down to give people an opportunity to go to water with no fear. Right. Right. Like I've had to do that a multitude of times where I pitched an idea. And I tabled the idea, because of how the response was the responses that cliff, you know, like, are the ideas the cliff, and I pitched the idea. And I can tell by that that thing we were saying earlier, you just know when somebody's not into it, and I tabled the idea and I build a slide from the top of the cliff to the water. And then I let them feel what it's like. And then three months later, I re pitched the old idea and they're like, Oh, yeah, that's let's do it.

Steven: Right. Well, you know, I mean, It's just like anything else, you know, I mean, it's it's decisions are far more emotional than people give credit to. You know, I mean, it's not just facts and figures, like people ultimately are going to dig in their heels if they don't, if they're not confident, and if they're, like you said, too scared. It's just the reality of things. It's a lot of it's emotionally driven. And as professionals, we got to help people walk through those things, even if they're the person we're talking to is professional, even if they've been doing it for years, if it's just a new thing, like you said, if it's a brand new idea for them, they may not want to jump.

Dennis: And it's your job, and it's my job to make people feel safe. Being an entrepreneur is a huge risk. Yeah, I mean, the average outside person with a nine to five looks at entrepreneurship. And it's like, oh, they just golf all day. Like, if my life was as easy as some people think my life is when it comes to being an entrepreneur and running this business. But it's, it's hard, and it takes a lot of risk. And it takes there's there are a lot of anxieties that come with somebody not writing you a paycheck. And it's not just about the money. Yeah, I've got two kids. It's, it's not about the money. It's about the livelihood of my children and my family. And it's about so many other things that are peripheral to just being an entrepreneur. And so when when you are a business owner working with a business owner, and you understand how, how sometimes dreadful It is, yeah, you know, that's what makes people like you, and I hope people like me good at what we do is that listening and that understanding and the human component to say, I get it, I get it, you're about to spend $4,000 on this campaign, that $4,000 could feed your family for a while I get it, however, that $4,000 is going to turn into 30. So let's, you know, and it is it's as much therapy as it is action. In most scenarios for me.

Steven: How do you draw the line between? So I'm just thinking about how, like, when you said that the first thing I thought of was like I had gone to one of the breweries here in Phoenix, and was was talking with the owner him and I have a great friendship and, and he had bought just like these fat pallets of their beer that they brewed canned, and it was like a $30,000 check he wrote for this stuff, you know, and it's, it's, it's so simple. I'm going to sell this eventually, because people like this right? But then it's funny, because then you got to ask the same thing for someone, you know, like, why would I spend, you know, $6,000 on a video, because you're gonna get your money back. That's why plus some you don't I mean, and so it's the same, it's the same process. You know, for someone who sells a product, they know that they got to do that investment on the front end, to make that ROI. And it's the same thing with the marketing. And I just think that there's probably just a lot of people in the industry. And I'm sure I've been guilty of it, too. We're like, we don't do a good job of connecting the dots between what they're spending and what they're going to get back. And so sometimes I feel like sometimes we end up in this era where like, oh, like we should run Facebook ads, because you should run Facebook ads, but not necessarily drawing that line between like, you're going to spend $100, and you're going to get $200 or $1,000, or whatever it is. And without those dots being connected, what we do doesn't matter.

Dennis: 100% and, and to be honest, that's one of the things that I don't do well, in my business is I, I don't I'm not great at tracking that sort of data all the time. I had a I had a client that did 80%, year over year, from 2000 to 2020. And I can't take all of that credit. Obviously, I'm not you know, but I think the compounded interest of all of all of all that happened over the course of our two years working together. So certainly plays Sure. Oh, yeah. And so that's always been an interesting thing for me is to have the reality that, you know, all of my clients are up year over year, literally, and that's really cool for me. But I always find myself a little bit into like, well, what, what do I attach to me, you know, like, and at some level, it's a bit irrelevant because I can show the process and I can show ad spend and I can show increased revenue over ad spend and I can show all those things. But that that's one place that I I don't think I do all that works. I'm not my brain doesn't quite work that way. I'm ultra creative, and I find myself looking at data and things sometimes and I'm like, Yeah, I don't care. Yeah, that's definitely like on the analytical side for sure.

Steven: Like, I'm Dude, I remember like, there was one video I was watching. I keep talking about Gary Vee, I just, I've watched a lot of his videos. So what can I say? But he was just talking about how he has people on his team that they all they do is like with the ads is they'll experiment with like different background colors. And they found out that it was like yellow or something was the one that got the highest response rate. And I'm like, who sits around just playing around with what background colors, you know, but I mean, it's an element in an ad, just like a headline is just like the images are just like the copy is, you know, all of those play apart. And for someone who's really into analytics, I'm sure they would just love to just tear that apart and get to the bottom of it. But I'm like, I just want to make a video. I really do.

Dennis: I've got a there's a guy that runs a company called North advisors who we work together on a couple clients, and I call him the data Christ. Because his brain does work that way. Like that's awesome. He, he loves the analytics are really, really good at creating a roadmap from $1 spent to the end of the customer journey. And to watch him do what he does bucking it blows my mind because I like color theory school. And we talked about that, right? You know, the analytics I just missed on a little bit. 

Steven: But well, that's what is good. I guess it's good that you know him then. Right? Because you just you can't be everything to everyone. 

Dennis: Not authentically, at least. Well, yeah. 

Steven: So you can fake it, I guess. But then that would be going against your brand. So certainly Woods will cool, man. Well, do you have anything else that I have not asked you that you think would be worth bringing up? Before we close things out? Nah, man,

Dennis: I really enjoyed our conversation. I think we, you know, just some of the human elements that we discussed, I think are really helpful for for anybody to hear, really, you know, in marketing or advertising otherwise. So I always appreciate your candor, and your willingness to communicate, and really dive into conversation. So thanks very much.

Steven: Yeah, super fun. So I'm glad we're able to do this. It was very exciting. So if you could, of course, I'll make sure all this is like in the descriptions and stuff like that of the different places we post, but if you could just share where people can find you. That'd be very helpful.

Dennis: Place to find me, I, I am a serial entrepreneur who does a lot of different things. So, you know, I the best place to find me is probably @dennisable on Instagram. Brand producer is www.brndprdcr.com no vowels. I don't like vows, everything about them. And, you know, those are probably the two easiest places. Okay?

Steven: Yeah, you're definitely very active on Instagram. So that's, that's always nice. You know, there's nothing that pisses me off more than a brand who posts on Instagram and doesn't respond to anything. It's like, what are you doing? This is called social media. It's not a billboard. Right? To me. Anyway, don't even get me started with that.

Dennis: It's so annoying. Next episode. I know, right?

Steven: Just hear me gripe about that. Well, cool, man. Well, I really appreciate you taking the time. super exciting. I think you and I just really share a lot of things that we like to really see the big picture. And I think that's huge. You know, it's like we've talked about, there's so many different aspects to attributing how well things are doing and what can work and what can't work and just being not married to any one particular thing I just think is so huge. And I hope that's a message that people hear when they they watch it or listen to it that don't be married to one thing to just be willing to try things be willing to be different to stand out. And you know, it push comes to shove, because you just had to delete the post right if you go too far, and hope no one sees it. So cool, man. Well, thank you so much. And it was good having you on so thank you. Thank you, man. I'll talk to you soon. Okay, later