Death to Vanilla | Sean Castrina - Serial Entrepreneur | Episode 05

Steven Burkhart: Well anyways, Sean, thank you so much for joining us at the death to vanilla Podcast, where we talk about courageously creating boldly innovating and experimenting. And so I'm excited to have you on you have a ton of business experience, I see you've been a speaker at some really awesome events, you have some some great books that you're offering, and just like an impressive portfolio, so I'd love for you to get a chance to introduce yourself, brag about yourself a little bit, and tell us what you're all about. Yeah, hi, again, Sean Castrina. I'm an author. But most importantly, I'm an entrepreneur, if I wasn't starting businesses, I wouldn't write. Because I think my stuff would be stale. So I'm really committed to that, that section of it. So yeah, I typically start a company and or a division within a company every year, and I've been doing it for over 20 years. And I write books about it. So there you go. That's awesome. Well, I got to start out with a selfish question. So and this one was totally off the cuff. Because I don't get a chance to actually talk to many book authors. So this is exciting for me. I listened to a podcast. And they they talked about some that a dynamic differences between say video, and maybe like, even like a, like a keynote speech in a book. And what they said is that a book is education first entertainment second, and like a video would be entertainment first education. Second, I think I said that right order? Would you? What, what is your thoughts on that? Like, do you find that to be true? Or how do you kind of approach that? Well, I mean, in a book, a person is typically more patient.

Sean Castrina: Because they just under you know, they most people understand there's a start, there's a first chapter and an ending. So I think just they're more trained to be a touch more patient. We're video, anything on a screen? We, you know, six, you know, what, is it five seconds on YouTube before you can skip the ad or something? So I think we've just been trained to dismiss any video, you better grab my attention, you better be great, creative, fast. Amazing. I mean, you got Tick Tock. And so I just think, yeah, there's no question. that's accurate.

Steven: Okay, cool. That that's, like I said, that's kind of a selfish question of my own. Because I feel like I don't know if you have you done any research with like, the enneagram. Or like, the personality types of that nature.

Sean: I mean, I've done everything on personality types. I was a psych major in college, very familiar, perfect. You got people that analyze things, and then you got people that you know, you know, that we definitely, there's a lot of ways to attract a lot of different people.

Steven: 100% Well, yeah, so the reason I asked this, because I discovered recently, I'm an enneagram, five, which is an investigator, so I'm very much into like, learning. And I read a lot of books and stuff like that. So for me, I was like, you know, what, I think my, I actually might be stronger, like, as a personality type from a book than I would a video. And so that was like, kind of exciting to me to hear that. Because I was like, You know what, I don't know if I have enough to say in a book yet, but it certainly is makes it a much more attractive option as someone who's trying to promote a business.

Sean: Yeah, and selling people like you like we have personality types. You're the granular you're the engineer, you want to know how we're going to make the soup? Yep. Other people just want to know what the suit isn't going to taste good. When can I get it? or How much is it gonna cost? So you're the you're the, you know, how are you going to make it?

Steven: Well, and that's, that's so true, because that's been one of my biggest struggles as a business owner driving, you know, sales and everything like that is is getting caught up too much in the grandly granular, not enough focused on, like, the benefits, you know, features versus benefits, right? Absolutely. But before we go down that road, rabbit trail too much. What So, you know, I wanted to talk a little bit about marketing, obviously, you have a lot of experience with that, just because you've had to market your ideas, right? If you're starting something new all the time, you've got to be able to explain it, communicate it, get buy in from it, which to me is a lot of what marketing is it's not simply just sales is about messaging, and so on and so forth. So for you, you know, the death of anila podcast is all about saying something, doing something marketing something in a way that like stands out, as opposed to just blending in with everything else. Like you talked about, you know, people are, you know, waiting every second of the five seconds of skipping YouTube ad. So what for you is like bold marketing, or you know, is that mean? It's risky? Does that mean it just says something crazy? Like, what does that mean to you?

Sean: I think the first thing I mean, I think there's fundamental rules and everything is an athlete and anything that I do, I think there's just fundamentals, you know, play soccer, you got to build a kick the ball, hit the ball, throw the ball in and stop a goal. You can dress everything up, but if you can't do those four things, you're probably not gonna have very good soccer team. And I tell you in marketing, it's true. There's a lot of ways to do all the components of it. But number one is until you know your target on it says if my target audience is over 55 I probably don't need to wow them with something silly or Stupid or whatever the case may be. But if they're under 25, I may need to go a different approach. So I think it, I still think the fundamental rule is know who you're communicating with. And you'll find, and then you have to have a message that resonates with that audience. And it gets their attention and drags them through the buying process. So I, you know, I think sometimes we can get too cute. Like, sometimes I watch a commercial. And at the end of the day, it failed in the fundamentals. What are you selling? Why should I buy it from you? They were so cute, that it's over. And I don't know what they were selling. I don't know why I should buy it. So it entertain me, but it did not sell me It did not. I don't remember the company. You know, sometimes you can get really too cute.

Steven: Right? Yeah, that's, that reminds me of an ad that I hear all the time on the radio. I'm not sure. I think it's just a local company in Arizona. But they have a guy that has like a really funny like, not like a Swedish accent, I can't really place it. But it's a phone company for like insulation. It's like they're like to, to to foam. And it's like one of those things where like, you hear that so many times, like you cannot forget that phone number. You know what I mean? So it you know, it's kind of cute in the sense they have like, funny accent for and everything else. But like you can actually remember how to contact them. And it's literally the word phone, there's no guessing what they're selling. And that stuff's about that. Yeah. Yeah.

Sean: I mean, I mean, I think you can be cute. There's a lot of ways to get people's attention. Without question, you have to get someone's attention. There's no getting around that any marketing has to grab their attention, look at the Geico commercials and, you know, Old Spice, you know, where they, you know, you got to get somebody's attention. But then you got to tell them what it is yourself. And then there has to be some pitch as to why I should buy it from you mean their their fundamentals, so you can get cute, and there's a million ways to do that now. But you still have to touch those bases, I think.

Steven: Right? So let me maybe this is are you are you comfortable sharing, like stories of things that didn't work that you were able to turn around? Yeah, perfect. No, I'm

Sean: Not asked me anything.

Steven: So I would I would love to hear since you have, you know, rather than what you've seen, I'd love to hear what you've experienced as far as like, what something that you like miscommunicated. At first, when it came to the marketing of it, and then like, made an adjustment and kind of walk us through, like how you were able to navigate that?

Sean: Yeah, the key thing is, is that I mean, I'm pretty good with marketing as a general, but there are times where I thought something would resonate in an area and it just didn't, okay, so it's rarely, you know, sometimes you just run something in the medium that you use, it might be a new direct mail piece that is new to the area, or it's a radio station that really doesn't have your target customer. Typically, I've picked bad and bad vehicles before. But they've worked on many other vehicles. So that's, you know, I've never found that to be the what I've learned in advertising, this might be more helpful to your audience. If it doesn't work, you can't fix it. Listen to listen what I'm saying, I'm talking 80% of the time, if you try something, and it has no traction, scrap it and redo it. 

Sean: Because I've never turned something around is what I'm trying to tell you. If the people they'll try to get you on three month contracts, well, you got to have reputation. And I owned a very a seven figure direct mail magazine, Okay, I understand how to get you under contract, I own a very lucrative digital marketing company, I understand marketing, and I'm telling you, my business owners don't don't sign if you're a new company, don't sign on for something long. You know, it had you'll know if it has some, some teeth, you may have to modify it a little bit, but you'll be getting a lot of calls, maybe they're not buying. So maybe you're not getting your target customer that you know, you can tweak that a little bit. But if it's crickets, it's, you have failed, sometimes easier the wrong message the wrong medium you're using, you know, you're you're missing on a massive component. And you better restart that.

Steven: So I mean, that's perfect with like, the whole experimenting thing that I was talking about earlier, as one of kind of like the bedrocks of what we desire is, is do you have a framework in which you do your experimenting? Because, obviously, like you said, if something doesn't work, there could be so many different things that are wrong about it. It could be the messaging, it could be the target audience, it could be the product, how do you have like a framework that you work through that experimentation process?

Sean: Yeah, the one thing that I've learned is don't the one of the bigger mistakes that we tend to do is we run, we're going to launch a company, for example, we're going to do we're gonna start new year off, we're doing like four different things. Do one thing at a time, that way you can hold its feet to the fire. So instead of you trying to do everything, just say okay, January through mid February, I'm going to do this through February 15 and march 31. I'm going to do this and track the daylights out of it. How many you know, how many leads did you get? How many calls 

Sean: Do you how many conversions what just, you know, create a dashboard for everything that you're doing. The problem is we, we got four different things going on, we don't know who to give credit for it and sometimes for things created the credit example, and I understand it because I do what I call layered marketing. In other words, I own a lot of home service companies. So I understand that I need to get your attention, but I need to get over your skepticism, I need to build credibility. So I have radio commercials that run all day long and nothing but testimonials. They're not designed to pitch you to buy me All I want you to say when you're getting ready to go shopping is I've heard good things about so and so.

Sean:  

So I do layered marketing. So I do a radio, I've tried radio, it doesn't move the needle for me. But it's very good. It's a one minute format, you have them trapped in the car, it's a good way to to do testimonials, I think better than any other method and or a TV. So I know there's I know this because I've done it for so long. But if I did four things at one time, I wouldn't really know what's working and what's not working. So the two piece of advice I give anybody who's owning a businesses, let each vehicle stand on their own for six weeks. That's the only way you can truly know what works. Number two is if it's crickets, it's a bad vehicle. bad message. It's one of the two and it's typically a bad vehicle.

Sean: If you put it on the right vehicle, you're still gonna get some some type of you know, somebody is going to reach out to you.

Steven: Right, okay. Now that answered that question perfectly. There was something I was thinking while you were mentioning that. Yeah, I mean, I guess for me, that resonates a lot because I feel like like I, you know, with like social media specifically, you know, like some on the digital side of the marketing, you know, we have these programs that can help us post to like every single social media platform known to man, you know, Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, Tiktok, you know, all these other ones. And I feel like at some point, you know, each one of those platforms kind of require their own like, strategy effort type of medium. And so at that point, it's like, Okay, I'm posting everywhere. So I'm not like missing out on a specific audience, but like, how do you even know you're doing well,

Sean: You don't know what works? See Exactly. This is the game. This is the game of advertising. It's a really simple game, you're trying to lower your cost per acquisition, to the lowest humanly possible that is marketing. That is the homerun, the homerun in marketing is I've acquired a target customer for less money than my competitor or less money that I even budgeted for. It's Moneyball, you know, the old book about the, you know, the Oakland A's. You know, the big thing is on base percentage he found out was the only statistic that was most valuable statistic. So he can put people on basis for the least amount cap salary cap wise, it was, you know, that was, you know, the concept, it's the same thing with marketing, I have a numerical number of leads, I need to get per week, it this number dict, I can look at my revenue, I can look at my profit, I'm telling you, the leads knock down all the other dominance. So I got to get that number. I know what that magic number is. Now the key is I've got to get that number needs to be quality people. 

Sean: Now I'm reading my target customer. If not, they're not going to buy example, if I own a home improvement company, and I'm targeting renters and apartments, I can get 40 calls, they're all worthless. So they still have to be your target quality customer. But then once you hit that, then you got to tweak it and try to keep getting that cost per acquisition lower. I mean, that's the that's the game and you can't do it. If you're on five different mediums. You don't know what you know, each one of them have a different cost, you know, and that, and that's why it's so diluted some impressions, clicks. And, yeah, I want a customer. Let's skip all that. I need a customer, a customer, somebody who bought from me, I need to reverse engineer their buying process. So you want to find out what's going to work in your marketing find the last 10 people who wrote you a check bought from you. 

Sean: They're the people you need to get on the phone and say, Hey, listen, Mr. Smith, we're going to give you such and such for free. We're so glad gratefully your customer, we're always trying to improve our marketing, keep our costs, you know what, you know, affordable, what made you buy from us? Where did you see us? What about our ad? Get somebody on the phone and just ask them that. Give them something to give you that information? And just say I'm going to take one minute of your time. That's it's old school, but I that's how you get the information.

Steven: Is that one of those conversations you find yourself having over and over again?

Sean: Over and I'm always asking customers because I want to know, that's why I know that radio doesn't make them bring up the phone. But I've talked to enough customers saying I hear so much about you guys. Well, I know the only way to place their hearing that it's on the radio so I can reverse engineer the process. They're like, I heard so much about you over the last six months, and then I got such and such in the mail, and then I saw a TV commercial. And so it might have been the combination of two, you know, so you got to reverse engineer the buying process. why don't why, you know, you always got to keep saying, Why did they buy from me in the first place? And then kind of own that buying process that marketing process?

Steven: Right. So, you know, I know a lot of people what, what's been your experience with Tick Tock so far? Because I know a lot of people have been jumping in on it, because it's new, because people are making huge audiences. You know what I mean? It's one of those emerging platforms, right? So the algorithm hasn't choked it out quite yet. What's been? Have you played around with that at all? Has that been something that you've jumped on? Or is that have you really not had any businesses where that audience was going to be a win for you? Yeah, I

Sean: Haven't, I try not to jump on things that are completely new. Mm hmm. I like them to kind of flush themselves. I'm more of a warren buffett guy like to see if they like to flush them out a little bit first, right. But then, you know, then I'll jump into something. But again, the biggest question I have is my I know, my target customers for all my businesses. So if they're not, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't, if I thought a hot air balloon, over over a wine over a wine tasting, would work, because that's probably my target customer. That's people over the age of 35. With money. I'm advertising there. You know, again, the basics are still the basics. You can be fun, you can be cute, you can do all that stuff. I've no problem with it. But you still have to attract your target customer with a message that makes them reach out to you and then buy. And the fundamentals are still the fundamentals, not get I I've owned direct mail, magazines and 23 cities, I own a digital marketing company. I have an ad running on the super during the Superbowl in our region for my companies. I mean, I do it all. I'm you know, I don't care. I'm not a respecter of any of its cost per acquisition. Perfect example, I'm running a Superbowl ad. That's big money. So I know that's got a knock over a lot of dominance.

Steven: Oh, yeah, for sure.

Sean: I don't even put it on the hook. for generating a customer. I use it completely as brand building. I earmark it because branding is one of the fundamentals of marketing. So I don't even try to hold it up to a numerical standard. I know that okay, what happens if this many people see our ad, see a testimony during the Superbowl? What is that worth over the next 12 months? I tend to believe it's worth quite a bit. Because it, you know, so there's a lot of ways to accomplish that.

Steven: No, I think that's great. And I think that kind of for me brings up a kind of like a next step question, which is like, okay, brand awareness is obviously huge. You know, let's just say we have our ducks in a row, and we've got, you know, steps one through five, like, where do you is, is brand awareness, something you're doing, you know, steps one through five is, what's up

Sean: The day you open your business, okay? The day you know what people buy from people they like, and trust period, period, here's another fundamental barring being the cheapest person, which is hard to compete in. People buy from people they like and trust, that trust can be that they believe you'll deliver on what you what you say, you're going to deliver on, you know, the old Domino's Pizza, I'll get your pizza or 30 minutes or less, I promise that you'll provide I put up trusting them to give me an edible pizza in 30 minutes. That was it, that was their value proposition, they beat that to, you know, and people bought it, whatever that case may be, but people buy from people they like and trust. So that's a fundamental Well, that's brand. mean, you know, you you're constantly bringing, you're building your brand and and however you choose, like how, you know Red Bulls, a different branding position, then Coca Cola, very Mountain Dew is somewhere in the middle. You know, Mountain Dew is kind of grabbing a little bit of the Red Bull idea. But in other words, again, they each have a different target customer. So you're constantly messaging and branding set, you know, you know, who is our company? 

Sean: Why should you buy from us? I mean, in essence, that's your brand. Always say your brand is what's the what if you want to here's a free piece of advice. This is the best thing that I've ever come up with in marketing. And I read books constantly, and I teach at colleges and whatever the case may be. You want to find your branding position. You're getting ready to launch a company. This right here is worth the entire podcast. What one promise that you can deliver on that your competition fails to that if your target customer heard it, they would chase you down for your business. 

Sean: Think about that again. What one promise if you could deliver on And your target customer heard about it, they would chase you down for your business. Every business follows that principle that successful Amazon. What do we get you anything in the world with one cup? One click one click get there and 24 hours. That's kind of the promise they've made to us. Southwest Airlines will fly you anywhere for cheaper. Okay, that's their That's the promise that they're making for FedEx week. How did they beat ups and united post office? What if we can get a package overnight anywhere in the world? That was their one promise. Look at Nike. What if we could put our shoes and apparel on the most esteemed athletes on the planet? I think you'd buy from us. 

Sean: Yeah, it worked. Bo Jackson john McEnroe early on, you know, that's how they did it. They got the most recognized athletes in the world to wear their, their their shoes and attire. You know, Bo knows all the way back to that. Great companies. Don't muddy the water with 50 things. Geico. What if we could save you 15% give us 15 minutes, we'll save you 15% all stay safe drivers save 20% it's it's all one. At the end of the day, you got to make one promise that you think can out position your competition. That's great marketing. The problem is we try to market five different things when we change what it is every two months.

Steven: Right?

Sean: I'm saying you got to find that one value proposition which is that one promise and make build your entire brand around that?

Steven: Well, I feel like that is that is exactly some of the journey that I saw Burger King go through, right because they had no people wanted healthy options. They wanted to serve this and serve that and serve this. And at the end of the day, like they've they've kind of embraced the idea that like people are there for a whopper that's it. And like that's what all their like signs show that's what they advertise like that's what they have like they're juicy sounds on their their TV ads, and it's like they serve whoppers. And yes, they serve other things. And yesterday, delicious, but like that they've had to learn to embrace that one thing.

Sean: KFC went through the same thing. And everything was getting healthy. Everything is gonna get Kentucky Fried. We want we want fried chicken. Yeah, we want greasy fried chicken. That's exactly what we want.

Steven: I don't want deep fried tofu. Fried chicken.

Sean: Exactly. If I want to go to a nutritious choice, I'm probably gonna you know, that's a different spot. Can't be all things.

Steven: Oh, geez. Yeah, that's Yeah, I really appreciate you bringing that up about that one promise. And I feel like, I feel like there's this like, odd trend that I've been, I've been bringing up to different people. And I kind of want to get your take on it, which is like this weird, like false humility with people where they're like, like, they really downplay what it is they do or how awesome they are. And I kind of feel like, at the end of the day, you really have to make kind of like, I mean, obviously, it's a promise you can deliver on Yeah, but you really have to, like beat your chest and say, like, Hey, we're the best at something. And I feel like people are really hesitant to do that. Now, not not so much like bigger businesses, you know, they get it and, you know, and but you know, as the business gets smaller, it gets becomes more personal. Because, you know, usually like the founder, or the business owner is like the, you know, that's their baby and stuff like that. And so there is more of a emotional thing. But I'd be curious what your take is on that. 

Sean: Yeah, I think there, there's a word for it, but you'd beat it out of the podcast. I mean,

Steven: My last guest swore. So you can go for it. You know,

Sean: It was it was it was probably a lady Park. I mean, at the end of the day, you have to man up or lady up or whatever the case may be, you're in business to make money. Let me just let me just crush everything out there. All right, make money.

Sean: You've got to be the best at something to really make money. If you don't make money, you're out of business. So all your good holistic thoughts. I want to do this, I want to do that you can't do any of it. Guess what, you can't give any money away when you don't make money. Okay, you can't have it. You can't build a great culture. If you don't have a great company. You don't have a great company if you don't make money. Okay, so the law of profit says you better be great at something, you better make money at it. And I've never found a company that's not great companies let you know, hey, we do that better than anybody. There's never been a company that you know, by the way, we suck at this. Just so you know, no, we suck really out of 10 companies. We're probably number nine. And I'd like you to buy from us. I mean, it just makes no sense, right? I want you to buy from No, no, we really are pretty average. Now that I think about it. No, it doesn't work.

Steven: Not very inspiring. Is it? Yeah. No. Yeah, I mean that that's part of that building trust part where it's like, you really have to believe that someone believes in them. selves to deliver on that kind of stuff. Otherwise, it's like why would you waste your time?

Sean: You know, it's still this still works around the world still works in America. We still like greatness. Yeah. Okay. Everybody tiptoes around it, but we really, we really like greatness. We admire grapes. Are we really surprised when Jeff Bezos is, you know, worth over $100 billion? Anybody should be worth over $100 billion the person running Amazon because I buy something every seven hours. So true. Right. I'm not shocked. Right. I'm not Chuck, guess what, Ilan, if you could put somebody on Mars, or you know what SpaceX, you can put somebody in space you can partner with, you know, NASA to do that. 

Sean: And by the way, you can create an electric car, they can do it in 3.5 seconds and looks decent. All right, I think you're worth 100 to 200. That, I think that idea is in that category. One not shocked greatness, leads footprints. And we we admire these people. You know, look at everybody who's super great. It's not like when you go like Warren Buffett, he's just a really he's been an average investment investor for years. Now we know he's the greatest investor to breathe oxygen. Right? We know he's a greatest. We it's okay to be great.

Steven: Well, okay, so then I guess so then I got to ask you another personal question then. Because, obviously, like you've built a personal brand, right? Your name is not just tied to the businesses you have, right? You have your own name, right. And you do these businesses? So did you struggle with like imposter syndrome as you were like building? Or is that something where like, you just looked at your work? And you're like, yep, that's, that's good.

Sean: I think you have to, I tell people in your business, grab a massive branding position from the beginning, and then live up to it.

Steven: Okay, so you're going to experience imposter syndrome? Because Yeah,

Sean: There is there's a point where you're kind of faking it till you make it like Andre Agassi said at one point that Yeah, you there is a point but you better you better get in, you better grow in the gym shoes fast. And you still have to deliver on what you promise. Sure. Example, how many times do you hear like radio ads? Or somebody says that they're the greatest sales trainer in the world? I've heard how many people claim to be the greatest. It's who can who can identify to me what's the measurable amount, right? You know, like, what's the measurable so I don't, so you can grab a big branding position, but you better grow into it quick.

Steven: That reminds me So have you ever watched elf that with Will Ferrell and when he runs into that coffee shop, he has a congratulation best cup of coffee. And it's like, who's walking around deciding who has the best cup of coffee, but it didn't stop them from putting it up on the sign. And you know, you know, obviously, it's a movie, but you see that stuff everywhere where it's like, there's these unmeasurable claims that like sound really cool. But it's like, well, how did you arrive to that? How did you get to decide if you're the best one in Arizona in the United States? It's like, Who? I mean, who's to say you're wrong either?

Sean: Exactly. I mean, I i've always taken big branding positions, always. And I think it's, it's smart gives you something to live up to.

Steven: What was yours?

Sean: Okay. My first company I started an auto detailing company 25 years ago, our brand our tagline was America's choice and mobile detail. I started a home remodeling company was called the leader in home repairs and projects was our tagline. I started the deck refinishing company America's choice in deck refinishing. I go on and on. I every company I do. I grabbed the boldest position from day one. If I can trademark it, I'm in.

Steven: So did you just not sleep until you figured out how to do that? Or like how did that happen?

Sean: Oh into it. You just got to grow into it. Right? No, it's just like, you know, you got you got who wants to be average?

Steven: Right? Yeah, I've always wanted to be proud of myself when I saw myself in the mirror. So I don't I don't think I'm the only one.

Sean: I think it's good. And I think people should, should know that. And, yeah, I think it's important, you know, make a big claim and grow and grow your company into it.

Steven: Right? That's good. Okay, so then if we're gonna go ahead and wrap up like, obviously, you know, personal branding has been a huge thing for you and and how have you found ways to kind of like leverage that for your businesses? Has it is it just gained your mastermind?

Sean: Absolutely. separate the two?

Steven: Oh, really? Okay.

Sean: I really do. What my because my business is I in local companies, the thing that my employees always say to people is Shawn doesn't need your money. That's kind of my my branding position within my companies. Trust me, Shawn doesn't need your money. Right? He owns the company because he wants to, he doesn't need to. So I've just leveraged my success in that way.

Steven: Right. I feel like that puts you like in a very non intimidating position where like people can feel more comfortable with you.

Sean: Yeah, they do. Like Yeah, so I my branding position is is that I do really well for a living, and so I don't need to rip you off. You know, I don't need to own this company. Unless I Thought it was bringing value to you.

Steven: Nice. Oh, cool. Well, hey man, I appreciate you just brought so many amazing things like I'm going to be I'm going to be re listening to this multiple times. So I appreciate your your input and your wisdom on us. This has been really incredible. So thank you so much for coming on the show. I'd love for you to share, we'll obviously throw it into like the show notes and everything like that. But if you could share ways that people could learn about you some maybe some resources you have and share that. That'd be great. Yeah, let me just give you a free book. If you go to seancastrina.com my name obviously my eight unbreakable rules for business. Business Startup success is on there and it's free. And you can follow me on Instagram.

Sean: I have a pretty large following there. So Sean Castrina. So they're the two best ways and I'm the host of the 10 minute entrepreneur podcast. I speak in like 10 minutes. That's kind of like my brain I like it's like drinking out of a, you know, a firehose, right. So that's awesome. 10 minute entrepreneur podcast. Sweet. Well, we'll make sure people check that out. Thank you so much, man. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for letting me be on the podcast. Oh, my pleasure. You have a good one.